SOMers - Stratomatic Baseball

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: The Greatest
«First  <  1 2 3 4  >  Last»  | Page of 4  sorted by


Third Base Coach

Status: Offline
Posts: 5563
Date: Jun 27, 2013
RE: The Greatest
Permalink  
 


How about Cobb or Wagner ? Those two usually seem to turn up in people's top 10 of all-time lists . I think I'd put Stan behind both of them

__________________

Go Bucs !!!

No-hitters- Ray Culp , Freddy Garcia , Phil Ortega , Scott Kazmir , Needle Nose Wright , A.J. Griffin , Carlos Torres , Stan Bahnsen , Mario Soto

Perfect games - Jamie Moyer , J. R. Richard , Sandy Koufax



VP of Operations

Status: Offline
Posts: 16185
Date: Jun 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

stargell8 wrote:

How about Cobb or Wagner ? Those two usually seem to turn up in people's top 10 of all-time lists . I think I'd put Stan behind both of them


Basically, I started with a list of elite players who were among the greatest hitters ever.  I just wanted to get a feeling for where everyone thought Musial belonged, among that peer group.

I was thinking primarily of players who played at least a significant portion of their careers in the Lively Ball Era.  I could have added Cobb (and probably should have), since I tossed Speaker in there.

Also, with the exception of Hornsby, all played either the outfield or first base, the positions Musial also played.  No catchers, no third basemen, no shortstops.  Why Hornsby then?  I have no idea... hmm.  I just tossed him in there, for some strange reason.

Clearly, though, a shortstop (actually, he played almost everywhere) like Wagner would also qualify for the comprehensive greatest ever list.



__________________

"No cell, no car, no credit cards, he's sixty-plus and gray...
Just sitting in his basement, with a Strat game underway."



Luxury Box Season Ticket Holder

Status: Offline
Posts: 806
Date: Jun 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

I know this will illicit speculation because I myself am not solid with the list myself, numerically speaking.

1.  Mays
2.  Ruth
3.  Aaron
4.  Williams
5.  Musial
6.  Gehrig
7.  Mantle
8.  Wagner
9.  DiMaggio
10 Cobb

 



__________________

I'd wake up at night with the smell of the ball park in my nose, the cool of the grass on my feet...The Thrill of the Grass...Heck, I'd play for free!



Umpire

Status: Offline
Posts: 9230
Date: Jun 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

nacster wrote:

 So IMO, only Gehrig easily beats Musial.  Musial easily beats Hornsby, Heilmann, and Robinson.  Speaker and Bonds nose out Musial, Musial kinda beats out Williams and Mantle, and more easily beats out DiMaggio and Griffey.  By ranking, I would go....Heilmann, Robinson, Hornsby, DiMaggio, Griffey, Williams, Mantle, Bonds, Speaker, Gehrig.


 They have the same HOF card pattern. Gehrig played in a hitters park. Musial in a pitchers park. Here the Lucky Seven stats.

EDIT  They both played with the same ballpark splits in reference to the numbers below.

 

Batter            Avg  AB   H  2B  3B  HR RBI  BB IBB   K    OBP  Slug OB+Sl
L.Gehrig         .264 624 165  36  12  26 108  79   2  91   .347  .486  .833
vs. Left         .249 201  50   6   4  11  34  15   0  39   .301  .483  .784
vs. Right        .272 423 115  30   8  15  74  64   2  52   .368  .487  .855


Batter Avg AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB K OBP Slug OB+Sl S.Musial .295 610 180 44 8 32 122 64 1 67 .359 .551 .910 vs. Left .349 152 53 14 1 11 28 21 0 17 .428 .671 1.099 vs. Right .277 458 127 30 7 21 94 43 1 50 .339 .511 .850


-- Edited by Nitrous Oxide on Friday 28th of June 2013 11:28:24 PM

__________________


VP of Operations

Status: Offline
Posts: 16185
Date: Jun 28, 2013
Permalink  
 

Mind you, I hadn't intended to make this a comprehensive all-time greatest query. Mostly just guys who might be comparable who also played the same positions (okay, so I got a bit goofy adding Hornsby).

Stan was an outfielder/first baseman, so I wanted to know what other outfielders/first basemen you might rank ahead of him. I see that we are finding some interesting differences of opinion.

nac, I assume you place Musial between Bonds and Mantle on your list...?

__________________

"No cell, no car, no credit cards, he's sixty-plus and gray...
Just sitting in his basement, with a Strat game underway."



General Manager

Status: Online
Posts: 13508
Date: Jun 28, 2013
Permalink  
 

seajaw wrote:

Mind you, I hadn't intended to make this a comprehensive all-time greatest query. Mostly just guys who might be comparable who also played the same positions (okay, so I got a bit goofy adding Hornsby).

Stan was an outfielder/first baseman, so I wanted to know what other outfielders/first basemen you might rank ahead of him. I see that we are finding some interesting differences of opinion.

nac, I assume you place Musial between Bonds and Mantle on your list...?


 You assume correct...........the only player I put "comfortably" ahead of Musial is Gehrig.  Bonds is ahead but believe it or not, not as "comfortably".  Aaron is more "comfortably" ahead then Bonds (which means yes, I rate Aaron higher then Bonds).

 

impression.php?i=%7BF091E243-5551-49C7-8269-851CB3F7F27F%7D&c=footer&lm=1372462415662

 

 



-- Edited by nacster on Friday 28th of June 2013 07:37:50 PM

 



-- Edited by nacster on Friday 28th of June 2013 07:38:46 PM

__________________

"NACSTER'S HISTORICAL REPLAY"

34 REPLAYS IN THE BOOKS!

1876-1883

1896-1900

1906

1916-1917

1921, 1929

1936-1937

1943, 1946

1956-1963

1976

1986

1991, 1996

37,117 regular season games through 34 replays!

 

 



Luxury Box Season Ticket Holder

Status: Offline
Posts: 671
Date: Jul 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

How would you guys compare Pujols to Stan? Pujols started his career with 10 straight 30 100 .300 seasons and missed the 11th hitting .299 with 99 RBI. 8 of those 10 seasons were over .325 and he has a .350 year and a 50 home run year. I know he's been on a decline the last few years but I can't believe how often he gets over looked in this discussion also. I don't think Alberts the best ever at all but his name does need to be brought up.

__________________


Luxury Box Season Ticket Holder

Status: Offline
Posts: 671
Date: Jul 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

Looking at his stats 49 not 50 and last year he missed only the batting avg hitting 285

__________________


VP of Operations

Status: Offline
Posts: 16185
Date: Jul 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

Wegernation wrote:

How would you guys compare Pujols to Stan? Pujols started his career with 10 straight 30 100 .300 seasons and missed the 11th hitting .299 with 99 RBI. 8 of those 10 seasons were over .325 and he has a .350 year and a 50 home run year. I know he's been on a decline the last few years but I can't believe how often he gets over looked in this discussion also. I don't think Alberts the best ever at all but his name does need to be brought up.


I don't think Albert gets overlooked.  He's clearly one of the best hitters of the early 2000's.  He just needs longevity.  Remember, Musial played 22 years.  As you know, the career averages will get harder and harder for Pujols to maintain, even as his counting numbers rise.

I don't think Pujols will be within 10 points of his current lifetime average when he retires, assuming he plays another five years.  He's lost 10 points on his average just since 2010.  He used to have the same .331 career average as Musial.

I also wonder if he has another MVP-type season in him.

It may turn out that Pujols is a rapidly-aging 33, while Stan still had five more .300+ season in him, after he turned 33.  He even managed to crank out a .351 average in 1957, at age 36.

Musial also played the outfield for much of his career (Pujols started in the outfield, as well).  He was probably the better outfielder of the two, while Pujols became a fine first baseman.  Albert has also logged time at third base, plus a few innings at second and even shortstop.

Both were great power hitters, but in different ways.  Albert hits more homers, but Musial has an overall edge because of the doubles and triples, particularly the three-baggers.  The best Pujols ever managed in three-base hits is four.

Musial topped 20 twice, plus had six other seasons in double-digits.

Musial also managed to accomplish all of his hitting feats while never once striking out as many as 50 times in a season.  Believe it or not, Musial's career high in strikeouts was 46.  And that was as a 41-year-old in 1962.

Off course, hitters didn't strike out as much back then anyway.

Pujols will always be dogged at least a little, on the possibility that he used PEDs, even though there are no positive test results.  The "Is he really that good?" debate has gone on for years, but we may never know, for sure.

However, why is his body breaking down the past few seasons?



__________________

"No cell, no car, no credit cards, he's sixty-plus and gray...
Just sitting in his basement, with a Strat game underway."



Luxury Box Season Ticket Holder

Status: Offline
Posts: 671
Date: Jul 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

All great points however, just to play devils advocate.... Puljols career low in avg is only 285 and this years slow start is by far the worst avg wise of his career numbers. I think it was 258 last night on bbr. He's started slow each of the last three years and although this year 275 may be wishful thinking one year under 285 isn't that bad. Also he's proven that he can still be an above avg hitter at this point of his career. And as you pointed out he's been slowed by injury.

Regarding longevity can't argue Stan's 20+ to Alberts 11 great years but I would like to point something out regarding that.
Puljols could be 2/3 years older than we are assuming (33). Their was reports last year or the year before about this. I don't know if that helps or hurts his case but, if true shortens his career for sure. I believe Albert was 21 when he came up but that could mean he was 23/24. Which is normal in today's game but back in the day, especially in that era, superstars played in the majors at 18,19 years old. That could be 5 extra years on the young side of his career Stan would have on him. (Didn't look up ether age of callup)

__________________


Luxury Box Season Ticket Holder

Status: Offline
Posts: 671
Date: Jul 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

To back up my point on puljols being able to sustain the power check Frank Thomas's numbers after he left Chicago. Excluding the injury seasons he put up 30+ almost every year

__________________


Umpire

Status: Offline
Posts: 9230
Date: Jul 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

Pujols is a great player...but I'm not ready to put him at Musial's level. IMO Musial is one of the greatest players to ever play.

This is an amazing Musial stat for his career. Identical number of hits home and road!

  
ISplitGGSPAABRH2B3BHRRBISBCSBBSOBAOBPSLGOPSTBGDPHBPSHSFIBBROEBAbiptOPS+
 Home152414346331540199918153949025210573817857337.336.427.5821.009314512225173111743.323106
 Away15021409638655699501815333872238943828748360.326.407.537.944299112928192210147.3189
 


__________________


VP of Operations

Status: Offline
Posts: 16185
Date: Jul 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

Wegernation wrote:

All great points however, just to play devils advocate.... Puljols career low in avg is only 285 and this years slow start is by far the worst avg wise of his career numbers. I think it was 258 last night on bbr. He's started slow each of the last three years and although this year 275 may be wishful thinking one year under 285 isn't that bad. Also he's proven that he can still be an above avg hitter at this point of his career. And as you pointed out he's been slowed by injury.

Regarding longevity can't argue Stan's 20+ to Alberts 11 great years but I would like to point something out regarding that.
Puljols could be 2/3 years older than we are assuming (33). Their was reports last year or the year before about this. I don't know if that helps or hurts his case but, if true shortens his career for sure. I believe Albert was 21 when he came up but that could mean he was 23/24. Which is normal in today's game but back in the day, especially in that era, superstars played in the majors at 18,19 years old. That could be 5 extra years on the young side of his career Stan would have on him. (Didn't look up ether age of callup)


Here's another way to look at the issue of career in decline:

Up through the 1958 season, when Stan was 38 years old, his career batting average was .340.  That's the kind of rarified air we are talking about, when we discuss Musial.

At one point, up to when his peak came to an end, Pujols was about even in career average with where Musial wound up.  After Stan has lost nine points off his lifetime average over his final five seasons.

Stan had 17 years to build up his lifetime aveages, before he got old.  Pujols had 10, before he started into decline.  Thus, Stan's numbers held up better than Pujols' will, in my estimation.  The swing in overall average will affect Stan less, because he had more at bats built up.

Just like an 0-5 day at the plate hurts the guy with 20 at bats on the season worse than a guy who has already batted 100 times.

I'd guess Pujols winds up around .315, maybe a little lower, depending on how much longer he plays.

Here's another guy to look at: Edgar Martinez.  Gar spent the last 11 years of his career on one good hamstring, after tearing one in Vancouver at the end of Spring Training in 1993.

Edgar's career peak lifetime average was .320, after the 2000 season.  Even though he batted .306, with 23 homers and 116 RBI in 2001 (playing his home games at Safeco Field, no less), that bad hammy wrecked havok on his ability to run.  He hurt it again in 2002.

He finished up at .311.  Talk about perfect splits, he hit .312 on the road, .311 at home.  At Safeco Field (that righthanded hitters' graveyard), he batted .293 from ages 37-42.

This is a lesson in late starts, as well (since you bring up that Albert may have been a couple of years older than his listed age).  Edgar's first full season as a starter in the Major Leagues came when he was already 27.  Albert's "decline" (if it is...) began at 31.

The Mariners had Jim Presley at third, while Edgar was winning PCL batting crowns at Calgary in 1987 (.329) and 1988 (.363).  He even hit .372 and .281 in September call-ups those two years.

That means, his peak years were ages 27-38, simply because he never had a chance to play when he was younger.  From 1995-2001 --ages 32-38 -- Martinez averaged .329/32/123, per 162 games.  And remember, he won a batting crown in 1992, with his .342 average, before he hurt the hamstring.

In fact, Edgar batted .302, .307, and .343 in his first three full seasons.  He was hurt and missed most of the next two seasons, then came back hitting .356, .327, .330, .322, .337, .324, and .306.

Now -- despite Edgar's career .312 AVG/.418 OBA/.515 SLG/.933 OPS/147 OPS+ -- I am not saying Edgar deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Musial.  Rather that Edgar might provide an interesting comparison to Pujols.  I think Albert will wind up closer to Gar than to Musial (which still ain't such a bad place to be).

Albert will certainly finish with better career totals in the counting numbers, but that is largely due to the fact that he got an earlier start, and literally wasn't hamstrung as badly with a major career-threatening injury just at what should have been the start of his  peak run.  It remains to be seen where his averages wind up.

Meanwhile, think of what Gar might have hit with two healthy legs and an earlier start.



__________________

"No cell, no car, no credit cards, he's sixty-plus and gray...
Just sitting in his basement, with a Strat game underway."



First Base Coach

Status: Offline
Posts: 3797
Date: Jul 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

Nitrous Oxide wrote:

Pujols is a great player...but I'm not ready to put him at Musial's level. IMO Musial is one of the greatest players to ever play.

This is an amazing Musial stat for his career. Identical number of hits home and road!

  
ISplitGGSPAABRH2B3BHRRBISBCSBBSOBAOBPSLGOPSTBGDPHBPSHSFIBBROEBAbiptOPS+
 Home152414346331540199918153949025210573817857337.336.427.5821.009314512225173111743.323106
 Away15021409638655699501815333872238943828748360.326.407.537.944299112928192210147.3189
 

 Talk about consistent!



__________________


Luxury Box Season Ticket Holder

Status: Offline
Posts: 671
Date: Jul 27, 2013
Permalink  
 

Ok I see what your saying but even so puljols is so much more a power guy. He already has more homeruns in about half the seasons, and his 162 avg he currently averages more (39,41 doubles, 25,43 homeruns) both favorable to puljols. Yes they are both subject to change with puljols entering his "decline" but let me give you 2 hypotheticals and I'd like to hear your take.

Sceniero 1:
The last few seasons between changing teams, leagues, and bad luck (playing through injuries, which he is currently doing) were just off years and puljols puts up close to career averages for the next 5 years say .315 avg another 175 homeruns (about 200 would be pace give or take but well add a slight decline) is that better than Stan the man??

2:
What he is/been the last few years is what he is another 5 years at 280 but lets keep the power at 175. Where would that put him in your eyes ?

And just for fun wann give a guess at a career line?
Ill go more optimistic than you I believe but let's assume health I say he finishes at .317 650 hr 1400rbi
He'd only need 30 homeruns a season and about 80 rbis over the next 5 years for the RBI and homerun totals. I know Stan has a ridiculous number of rbis but the home run difference could be so big when all said and done


__________________
«First  <  1 2 3 4  >  Last»  | Page of 4  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.



Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard