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Post Info TOPIC: Building the Hall of Fame
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VP of Operations

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Date: Dec 15, 2014
RE: Building the Hall of Fame
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The fires are burning...and are probably going to get really hot here...wink



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VP of Operations

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Date: Dec 15, 2014
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Ruth only unanimous pick
SOMers selection committee picks 6 to open Hall

SOMers -- If the National Baseball Hall of Fame were opening today, and the selection process was put into our hands, Babe Ruth would be heading an inaugural class of six baseball immortals.

Ruth was the only unamimous selection from among the 23 baseball greats named on SOMers' ballots.

No doubt this owes to the huge number of highly-qualified candidates.

Ruth reveived nine votes, followed by Ty Cobb and Willie Mays, who were named on eight of the nine ballots.

Hank Aaron, Walter Johnson, and Cy Young were also inducted, receiving seven votes.

Honus Wagner (6) received the highest number of votes of the remaining 17 players.

To be enshrined, players must be named on at least 75% of the ballots submitted.

The voting definitely trended toward the older players.  Only five of the 23 played after 1978.  Ten played their entire careers before WWII.

Two players -- Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson -- spent all or most of their careers in the Negro Leagues.  Three others -- Mays, Aaron and Jackie Robinson also started out playing Negro League ball.

Here are the players whose names were submitted, and their vote totals:

Babe Ruth (9)
Ty Cobb (8)
Willie Mays (8)
Hank Aaron (7)
Walter Johnson (7)
Cy Young (7)
Honus Wagner (6)
Christy Mathewson (5)
Lou Gehrig (4)
Rogers Hornsby (4)
Ted Williams (4)
Barry Bonds (3)
Greg Maddux (3)
Grover Cleveland Alexander (2)
Satchel Paige (2)
Roger Clemens (1)
Roberto Clemente (1)
Josh Gibson (1)
Tony Gwynn (1)
Joe Jackson (1)
Sandy Koufax (1)
Stan Musial (1)
Cal Ripken Jr. (1)
Jackie Robinson (1)



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Luxury Box Season Ticket Holder

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Date: Dec 15, 2014
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I have arrived to the party too late I see...very unique and interesting idea Seaj!

 



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VP of Operations

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scorpio rising 2 wrote:

I have arrived to the party too late I see...very unique and interesting idea Seaj!

 


Thanks.

There will be a second round of voting within the next couple weeks.  You'll be able to get in on that one.

As for now, jump right in and add your thoughts to the mix.  Hopefully, we'll have lots of discussion, not only on the selections, but the process, as well.



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First Base Coach

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Date: Dec 15, 2014
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I can't argue with the 6 elected, since they were all on my ballot. All on the list would likely receive my vote at some point, some just weren't in my top 10. My only waiver would be on Bonds, but I did consider him for even my top 10, so I likely will include him at some point. Others on my list were Wagner, Gehrig, Paige, and Robinson. At some point I'll make a case for each one of these in the hopes of getting them elected in the future.

Great idea Seajaw. Looking forward to the next election.

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First Base Coach

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Date: Dec 15, 2014
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...I would also waiver on Clemens. I haven't reconciled the whole steroid era in my own mind at this point.

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Season Ticket Holder - Upper Deck

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Date: Dec 15, 2014
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Very interesting.

It's noteworthy that neither Mantle or DiMaggio received a single vote.

I'm not a Yankee fan, but that fact is surprising to me.

Is there an anti-Yankee bias here ?  Which is OK with me.

Wish I would have made the cut-off to vote (my bad) to get Honus Wagner in.

I look forward to keeping up with this topic in a more timely fashion.  



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VP of Operations

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Date: Dec 15, 2014
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tomthebomb wrote:

Very interesting.

It's noteworthy that neither Mantle or DiMaggio received a single vote.

I'm not a Yankee fan, but that fact is surprising to me.

Is there an anti-Yankee bias here ?  Which is OK with me.

Wish I would have made the cut-off to vote (my bad) to get Honus Wagner in.

I look forward to keeping up with this topic in a more timely fashion.  


I don't think there was an anti-Yankee bias.  Just too many elites to consider in the early going.

I'm sure Mantle and DiMaggio will get their due.  But consider the fact that even Willie Mays wasn't unanimous.

As with everyone else who didn't get a chance to vote, there's always the second round.

Anyone else surprised at who didn't get any votes?  Warren Spahn?  Eddie Collins?  Lefty Grove?  Johnny Bench?  Tris Speaker?



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VP of Operations

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Date: Dec 15, 2014
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glewis wrote:

I can't argue with the 6 elected, since they were all on my ballot. All on the list would likely receive my vote at some point, some just weren't in my top 10. My only waiver would be on Bonds, but I did consider him for even my top 10, so I likely will include him at some point. Others on my list were Wagner, Gehrig, Paige, and Robinson. At some point I'll make a case for each one of these in the hopes of getting them elected in the future.

Great idea Seajaw. Looking forward to the next election.


Thanks.

The big problem is obviously the menu.  There are so many players to choose from.

The six players chosen do make a solid statement, even if there are so many others who came so close.  I would imagine the next five on the list will get in in short order.

I have to go back and agree with Tom, however, that it is surprising that DiMaggio and Mantle didn't get a single vote.

Another thought: only two of the top 11 played after 1940.  Obviously, Mays and Aaron are slam-dunks.  But, we have had plenty of discussions over time about whether the Oldtimers could hold their own against the bigger-faster-stronger modern player.

Only 11 of the 90 total votes were for players whose careers began after 1960.  Two players -- Barry Bonds and Greg Maddux -- each got three of those 11 votes.

Is there a definitive statement in there somewhere that -- in 50 years of post-'50's baseball -- no one has come along that stands with those who were selected?



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Umpire

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Date: Dec 15, 2014
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tomthebomb wrote:

Wish I would have made the cut-off to vote (my bad) to get Honus Wagner in.


 Don't feel bad. If you had voted Wagner still would not have made it. That 7th vote would have been out of 10 (70%).



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Umpire

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seajaw wrote:

Is there a definitive statement in there somewhere that -- in 50 years of post-'50's baseball -- no one has come along that stands with those who were selected?


 Only definitive to the 9 people who voted. Beyond those 9 folks I'm not sure any conclusions can be drawn.



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Umpire

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Date: Dec 15, 2014
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seajaw wrote:
I'm sure Mantle and DiMaggio will get their due.  But consider the fact that even Willie Mays wasn't unanimous.

As with everyone else who didn't get a chance to vote, there's always the second round.

Anyone else surprised at who didn't get any votes?  Warren Spahn?  Eddie Collins?  Lefty Grove?  Johnny Bench?  Tris Speaker?


 I think that given a different group of people we may seen some different names. Add more voter and we would definitively would have more names.

There were a couple surprises to me of who did get at least one vote. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Yet every name there has an advocate here and truly believes their top 10 is the correct top 10.



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Season Ticket Holder - Upper Deck

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Date: Dec 15, 2014
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I think that most members here are historians, so we might be a bit more respectful of the founding father greats of the game.

Could we also be influenced perhaps by playing games with the original SOM hall of fame card sets ?

I like playing with those, especially with my older grandson, because he gets a feel for how good the players from 60 to 100 years ago were.

And sometimes the game in our imagination is better than the game on the field.

 

Seajaw's got me fired up.... I need more votes to take place.



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Umpire

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glewis wrote:

...I would also waiver on Clemens. I haven't reconciled the whole steroid era in my own mind at this point.


tomthebomb wrote:

I think that most members here are historians, so we might be a bit more respectful of the founding father greats of the game.


This is not directed at you gentlemen. I'm certainly not going to be kind to the players of the past. We are starting with a clean sheet of paper so I put everybody on the same playing field

I did not originally cast a vote as I knew I would go down this road. I have a lot of issues with the HOF and have tried to stay away from this kind of stuff for a long time. Seajaw came to to me and asked if I would participate. If you don't like my post blame him. biggrin

This is an open ended free flow rant. Steroid evoke emotions. When looking at this topic it begs many other thoughts beyond steroids. Not the first baseball scandal...not the last.

 

Can anybody tell me that Ty Cobb or any other player didn't use what he believed to be performance enhancing aids?

Can anybody tell me that players used greenies for health and not a perceived performance advantage?

Has any HOFer ever scuffed or put a foreign substance on a baseball?

Has any HOFer ever corked a bat?

Can any player from before 1947 really be equally judged against players who players after baseball integrated?

Can players who dominated in the Negro Leagues be judged on equal footing with their MLB peers?

Did Pete Rose off the field problems really mean the all time hits leader and mutli time WS champion did not play at a HOF level?

Why did Hank Aaron continue to perform at all star levels until he reached 40? Was it Fulton County or something else?

How many games did Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds miss for PED suspensions? (hint-zero)

Baseball players were seen as all American hero until Ball Four came out. The press ignored obvious flaws in these men. Babe Ruth, naked, gets chased through a train by a woman with a knife...no press coverage. Mantle and Company were not model citizens. Ty Cobb was a first rate jerk by all accounts. I've read the latest Ted Williams book and I'm convinced he would have done anything to be a better hitter.

If players are to be judged against their peers and that player plays during that era why is that held against them if they were not suspended?

If a player dominated in this era where steroid use was rampant then weren't they really on a level playing field with their peers? 

Baseball and its hypocrisy. Barry Bonds...7 MVPs. Roger Clemens...7 Cy Young awards. The same people who voted them to those awards then turned their back on them during HOF voting. What a load of crap! Build them up then tear them down. Those people should be stripped of their voting rights. Baseball created this mess. The Clemens trial was witch hunt and he was found not guilty on all 6 counts!

The last time I checked the record book Barry Bonds has the single season and all time Homerun records. Roger Clemens has 354 wins and 4,672 strikeouts. I can't pretend those numbers don't exist nor can baseball remove them.

Let me be clear...this rant has much more to do with modern news coverage and scrutiny. To single out a generation as the only corrupt group in the history of baseball defies logic. I can't image the media coverage of some of yesterday's sports stars if they were under the microscope of today.

To look at baseball as somehow innocent is not an accurate portrayal of the past.

This is the SOMers Hall of Fame...we get to decide..not the media..not the talking heads. I would ask anybody to ask the tough questions when looking at who should be in. Everybody has their own opinions and biases, but so do the real voters and veterans committee.

For the record I voted Roger Clemens and I'm prepared to defend my choice...and I think he is a jerk. I also voted for Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson.

 

 



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First Base Coach

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Nitrous Oxide

Great rant. I've had all these same thoughts. Ultimately I believe I'll base my decisions on who were the best players in each era. If you dominate the so-called "steroid era" you'll ultimately earn my vote (if Seajaw continues these vote and I really hope he does), it is where I'll cast that vote that I need to decide. Overall numbers are not the biggest influence in my decisions, I think every era has differences that skew the numbers. I'm looking for great performance within that era. I'm also weighing historical significance, how did they change the game? That was very important to me in several of my first 10 choices.

I'll also consider Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose at some point.

I agree that if certain items were available many players from other eras would have used steroids. I was thinking this about Lou Gehrig this weekend, I'm currently reading a Gehrig bio, and I think he may have considered 'roids when the first signs of his decline from ALS appeared. He was distraught about not performing and so loved to play. Many of these players are driven to be great and want to continue to be great, what would they be willing to do when their natural gifts began to erode? I don't think we can honestly say that some of them wouldn't have used if given the opportunity. I also wonder why steroids is wrong, but unnecessary laser eye surgery is not. Aren't they both enhancing upon your natural abilities?

I also often think about how our view of past stars would have been different with today's 24-hours news coverage and ratings that need to be driven by controversy and "bold" statements instead of rational thought.

FYI - I was the other vote for Satchel Paige.




-- Edited by glewis on Tuesday 16th of December 2014 05:32:27 AM



-- Edited by glewis on Tuesday 16th of December 2014 05:33:19 AM

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